Old Engines & Today's Crummy Oils = Problems for Hot Rods

The place to share a little bit of know-how & how-to.

Old Engines & Today's Crummy Oils = Problems for Hot Rods

Postby Larry » Mon Jan 12, 2009 11:32 pm

I have seen this discussion in MANY printed publications over the last year or so. The problem is that the EPA & the cheapskates in Big Oil have stripped out the zinc in almost all of the over-the-counter motor oils. It was the zinc & phosphorous addatives that lubed & protected the camshafts & lifters on our old motors. If it's not in the oil, then you can quickly wipe out the cam in a vintage mill.

The info contained below is a little deep, but you NEED to know the perils of these new oils.

This is a Tech Bulletin from the folks at AMSOIL INC.,
AMSOIL Bldg., Superior, WI 54880 (715) 392-7101 © Copyright 2008
OBJECTIVE:
Provide facts outlining lubrication requirements of flat tappet
camshaft engines and the importance of higher levels of zinc
and phosphorus.
ISSUES:
Flat tappet camshafts undergo extreme pressure and loads,
thus requiring an engine oil that is fortified with anti-wear
additives to provide premium protection. The severity of
higher spring pressure in racing engines also creates the need
for additional wear protection.
To preserve catalytic converter life, phosphorus levels in
motor oil have been reduced. Concerns have risen that oils
containing lower levels of zinc/phosphorus could provide
insufficient protection in high-pressure areas of flat tappets
and camshaft lobes found in many older and high performance
engines.
TECHNICAL DISCUSSION:
The most commonly used anti-wear additive in motor oils is
zinc dialkyldithiophosphate (ZDDP). ZDDP contains both
zinc and phosphorus components working together to provide
anti-wear protection, and is most important during cam
“break-in” procedures. Proper break-in lubes should be used
during the break-in phase for all new or rebuilt engines with
flat tappets. These lubricants provide the extra protection
required to reduce wear at the point of contact during break-in
and help the flat tappet face properly mate with the cam lobe.
Once the break-in phase is completed, AMSOIL motor oils,
which are formulated with high levels of zinc and phosphorus,
will provide premium protection to flat tappet cams.
The American Petroleum Institute (API) and International
Lubricants Standards Approval Committee (ILSAC) have
mandated the reduction of phosphorus to extend catalytic converter
life. However, reducing the level of ZDDP can compromise
protection to engine components, most notably in flat
tappet camshafts. Current API SM and ILSAC GF-4 specifications
for gasoline engines have maximum and minimum
phosphorus levels of 800 ppm and 600 ppm, respectively, for
SAE 0W-20, SAE 5W-20, SAE 0W-30, SAE 5W-30 and SAE
10W-30 motor oils. All other gasoline SAE grades do not
have a mandated phosphorus limit.
All engines, especially high-performance modified engines,
benefit from oils with superior film strength and anti-wear
properties. The flat tappet/camshaft lobe interface is the one
area in an engine that has extreme contact load. Since this load
increases significantly when non-stock, high-pressure valve
springs are employed, the use of properly formulated motor
oils is extremely important to reduce wear and extend flat tappet/
camshaft life.
RECOMMENDATION:
AMSOIL recommends motor oils containing high levels of
zinc/phosphorus for superior protection. Many of the
AMSOIL synthetic motor oils are formulated
with high levels of anti-wear additives.
amsoillogonew.gif

Check the Singlefinger Speed Shop Store for these products!
Murphy was an optimist...
User avatar
Larry
Site Admin
 
Posts: 1343
Joined: Sat Aug 09, 2008 8:10 pm
Location: The D

Re: Old Engines & Today's Crummy Oils = Problems for Hot Rods

Postby safari-wagon » Wed Jan 14, 2009 12:13 am

I've got Amsoil PCO semi-synthetic blend in my old rods & the high levels of zinc in it seem to work well in the old motors.

It doesn't seem to drip as much now... then again, I never worry about the drips, until they stop! :lol:
"What this country needs are more unemployed politicians."
Edward Langley, Artist (1928-95)
User avatar
safari-wagon
 
Posts: 248
Joined: Wed Dec 03, 2008 6:15 pm

Re: Old Engines & Today's Crummy Oils = Problems for Hot Rods

Postby Larry » Sun Dec 26, 2010 11:07 am

TSB: MO-2007-08-08 Date: Rev. 1: 11/3/08
Product Description: AMSOIL Synthetic Motor Oils
Subject: Flat Tappet and Camshaft Lobe Lubrication
Submitted By: DP Reviewed By: DP Approval By: AA Approval Date: 11/21/08
Distribution: Internal X All Page 1 of 2
Technical Service Bulletin

OBJECTIVE:
Provide facts outlining lubrication requirements of flat tappet camshaft engines and the importance of higher levels of zinc and phosphorus.

ISSUES:
Flat tappet camshafts undergo extreme pressure and loads,
thus requiring an engine oil that is fortified with anti-wear
additives to provide premium protection. The severity of
higher spring pressure in racing engines also creates the need
for additional wear protection.
To preserve catalytic converter life, phosphorus levels in
motor oil have been reduced. Concerns have risen that oils
containing lower levels of zinc/phosphorus could provide
insufficient protection in high-pressure areas of flat tappets
and camshaft lobes found in many older and high performance
engines.
TECHNICAL DISCUSSION:
The most commonly used anti-wear additive in motor oils is
zinc dialkyldithiophosphate (ZDDP). ZDDP contains both
zinc and phosphorus components working together to provide
anti-wear protection, and is most important during cam
“break-in” procedures. Proper break-in lubes should be used
during the break-in phase for all new or rebuilt engines with
flat tappets. These lubricants provide the extra protection
required to reduce wear at the point of contact during break-in
and help the flat tappet face properly mate with the cam lobe.
Once the break-in phase is completed, AMSOIL motor oils,
which are formulated with high levels of zinc and phosphorus,
will provide premium protection to flat tappet cams.
The American Petroleum Institute (API) and International
Lubricants Standards Approval Committee (ILSAC) have
mandated the reduction of phosphorus to extend catalytic converter
life. However, reducing the level of ZDDP can compromise
protection to engine components, most notably in flat
tappet camshafts. Current API SM and ILSAC GF-4 specifications
for gasoline engines have maximum and minimum
phosphorus levels of 800 ppm and 600 ppm, respectively, for
SAE 0W-20, SAE 5W-20, SAE 0W-30, SAE 5W-30 and SAE
10W-30 motor oils. All other gasoline SAE grades do not
have a mandated phosphorus limit.
All engines, especially high-performance modified engines,
benefit from oils with superior film strength and anti-wear
properties. The flat tappet/camshaft lobe interface is the one
area in an engine that has extreme contact load. Since this load
increases significantly when non-stock, high-pressure valve
springs are employed, the use of properly formulated motor
oils is extremely important to reduce wear and extend flat tappet/
camshaft life.

RECOMMENDATION:
AMSOIL recommends motor oils containing high levels of
zinc/phosphorus for superior protection. The table below lists
many of the AMSOIL synthetic motor oils that are formulated
with high levels of anti-wear additives:

AMSOIL Synthetic Motor Oils **************** Phosphorus Level (ppm) / Zinc Level (ppm)
AMO 10W-40 Synthetic Premium Protection Motor Oil ***************** 1265 / 1378
ARO 20W-50 Synthetic Premium Protection Motor Oil ****************** 1266 / 1379
HDD Series 3000 Synthetic 5W-30 Heavy Duty Diesel Oil ************** 1266 / 1379
AME 15W-40 Synthetic Heavy Duty Diesel and Marine Motor Oil ****** 1267 / 1377

AMSOIL Synthetic Racing Oils ********** Phosphorus Level (ppm) / Zinc Level (ppm)
RD20 Dominator Synthetic Racing Oil 5W-20 **************************** 1424 / 1575
RD30 Dominator Synthetic Racing Oil 10W-30 ************************** 1424 / 1575
RD50 Dominator Synthetic Racing Oil 15W-50 ************************** 1424 / 1575
AHR SAE 60 Synthetic Super Heavy Weight Racing Oil ***************** 1265 / 1375


AMSOIL AMO, ARO, HDD, AME, RD20, RD30, RD50 and
AHR
all contain high levels of zinc/phosphorus, maximizing
flat tappet/camshaft life in stock modified and high-performance
applications.
AMSOIL 10W-40 (AMO) and 20W-50 (ARO) Synthetic
Premium Protection Motor Oils are formulated with high zinc
and phosphorus levels to provide protection in both gasoline
(SL) and diesel (CI-4 Plus) applications. These oils are an outstanding
choice where high zinc-containing protection is
required, such as in late model hot rods that require extra
camshaft protection.
AMSOIL Series 3000 Synthetic 5W-30 Heavy Duty Diesel
Oil (HDD) is a combination diesel/gasoline oil with a higher
starting TBN to handle the significant stresses from high soot
loading and acid generation in modern diesel engines. HDD
contains the high phosphorus and zinc required for long life
engine protection.
AMSOIL 15W-40 Synthetic Heavy Duty Diesel and Marine
Motor Oil (AME) is engineered for use in a wide variety of
light and heavy-duty applications. AME is formulated with
high levels of zinc and phosphorus to ensure protection of flat
tappet camshaft lobes in high performance diesel engines.
AMSOIL Dominator Synthetic 5W-20, 10W-30 and 15W-50
Racing Oils (RD20, RD30, RD50) are all formulated with the
same robust additive package. These oils are heavily fortified
with zinc and phosphorus to protect flat tappet cams in the
most extreme racing conditions.
AMSOIL SAE 60 Synthetic Super Heavy Weight Racing Oil
(AHR) is a super heavy weight racing oil designed for alcohol
and nitro burning race engines where viscosity loss associated
with fuel dilution is a concern. AHR includes a high dose of
zinc-containing anti-wear chemistry that race engines require.
Submitted
Murphy was an optimist...
User avatar
Larry
Site Admin
 
Posts: 1343
Joined: Sat Aug 09, 2008 8:10 pm
Location: The D

Re: Old Engines & Today's Crummy Oils = Problems for Hot Rod

Postby jxnslotcar » Sat Jan 28, 2012 1:09 pm

We just became a distributor for Schaeffer Oil which is the oldest oil company in the US. It appears that this oil is even better than AMSOIL. We have not gotten out 1st order in as of yet. It will be interesting to try out the various products and see how the claims hold up under real conditions. We currently go through 1600 plus vehicles a year,all of which are bought needing work. Jeff is running a UMP modified and just picked up a Super Later Model as well and I will be running a SBC in the 62 Chevy II wagon in the bracket classes as well as putting a 63 Chevy II coupe together that will be running a LS engine. I hope to catch a few Autocross events with that car. We will be running Schaeffer oil and products in these vehicles as well as select auction vehicles. This will be a real world test.
jxnslotcar
 
Posts: 227
Joined: Sat Jan 01, 2011 8:57 am
Location: Jackson,Michigan 49202

Re: Old Engines & Today's Crummy Oils = Problems for Hot Rod

Postby Singlefinger » Thu Oct 18, 2012 8:45 pm

A few weeks ago, Hemmings introduced their own brand of motor oils for old cars & trucks:
http://blog.hemmings.com/index.php/2012 ... ssic-cars/

Here's a bit of good tech info-

Tech 101: Zinc in oil and its effects on older engines

Image

There has been a lot of confusion in the last few years about the lowering of zinc and phosphorus levels in modern oils and how these lower levels relate to classic and performance engines using standard flat tappet lifters – that is, just about every car built before the Eighties. The concern involves the use of the new lower zinc/phosphorus-content ILSAC (multi-viscosity) oils, readily available on shelves at auto parts stores everywhere, and how compatible they are with these older engines.

When anyone mentions zinc, they are actually referring to zinc dialkyldithiophosphate, a compound invented by Castrol for use in mineral-based oils or zinc di-thiophosphate (ZDTP), which is normally used in synthetic oils. Both have been used as an anti-wear ingredient in engine oil for many years. The zinc and phosphorus ingredients appear to be most effective when they are used together. ZDDP/ZDTP is one of many additives that are put into conventional motor oil to improve its lubrication qualities. Other ingredients such as boron and molybdenum are also added as lubricant enhancers.

What was discovered through oil testing by several engine component manufacturers is that many older engines experience a short period of time during engine start-up where critical lubrication is insufficient between metal-to-metal lubrication points when using modern oils with reduced amounts of ZDDP/ZDTP. These same enhancers unfortunately have their downside: The phosphorus in this compound creates carbon buildup in engine bores and valvetrains, and both compounds can also lead to the early demise of catalytic converters. For this reason, the industry has been phasing out zinc and phosphorus levels since 1994, when the American Petroleum Institute’s SH designation became the industry standard, and levels have been further reduced in each subsequent API rating for engine oils. Manufacturers have tried adding more boron to offset the effects of the reduced zinc and phosphorus levels; however, the dry start protection does not measure up to those using more ZDDP/ZDTP. This has opened up a whole new market for zinc/phosphorus additives for oil and many camshaft and engine manufacturers now recommend that an additive be used in initial break-in and for regular use.
Image
All engine oils are rated for viscosity by the SAE as well as additive content by the API; passenger car ratings are two-letter designations that start with “S.” Heavy-duty or off-road equipment ratings start with “C.” The current API oil rating for passenger cars (gasoline engines) is SM and for trucks (diesel engines) CJ-4. Within these designations, you can determine how much zinc and how many other chemicals are present in the ILSAC (multi-viscosity) oils. These levels do not apply to straight-weight oils. If levels in the ILSAC oils are too high for the API specification, they cannot be rated for the current specification unless the container specifies “for racing or off-road use only” or “for use in classic cars.” This has caused oil companies to reduce levels of many additives, including zinc and phosphorus, to the required maximum in order to meet the current specification. Listed here are the current specifications for maximum amounts of additives to achieve the API ratings. P is phosphorus, Zn is zinc, and B is boron. Each figure is total parts per million of additives. These can also be roughly expressed in percentages by multiplying by .0001 (1301 PPM = .13 percent, 994 PPM = .099 percent)

API P Zn B
SJ 1301 1280 151
CI-4 1150 1374 83
SL 994 1182 133
CJ-4 819 1014 26
SM 770 939 127

Most engine and engine component manufacturers recommend zinc and phosphorus content of more than 1,200 PPM for break-in; in fact, many will void warranties on camshafts or crate engines if this minimum is not found in the oil sample you supply when returning broken parts for warranty. For this reason, many manufacturers produce their own zinc additives or oils with supplementary zinc included; GM even offers its own break-in oil with additional ZDDP. With respect to readily available oil, you can see from the chart that, if you can find oil still on the shelf rated SJ or SL, you can use them, but you are right on the cusp of voiding a warranty. New SM oils are just not going to cut it unless they have a zinc additive to boost the rating and one of the zinc supplements should be used with these oils or oils containing additional ZDDP additives are recommended. Some enthusiasts have recommended using commercially rated CI-4 15W40 diesel oil to meet the zinc and phosphorus additive requirement; however, CI-4 is an old specification and hard to locate. You can see that the CJ-4 specification that now supersedes it is well below acceptable levels. Our best recommendation is that you contact your oil supplier for exact additive contents. Many straight-weight oils do not have to meet the ILSAC API specifications to be sold as SM or CJ-4, so this may be an alternative. Classic car oils with elevated levels of ZDDP/ZDTP are also being offered by many suppliers. Regardless, if you are purchasing off-the-shelf oil for your classic car, ILSAC multi-viscosity oils rated SM or CJ-4 should have stated zinc and phosphorus additive supplements for use in older engines or an additional separate additive should be purchased and used with the new oil. As the new API rating SN becomes available in the next year, even more caution should be taken as the levels will be reduced even further.

More Sharing ServicesShare | Share on facebook Share on email Share on favorites Share on pinterest


http://blog.hemmings.com/index.php/2012 ... refer=news
Autorama -2012 Quote of the weekend:

"Hey, it's those f*ckyou guys from Downstairs!"
User avatar
Singlefinger
 
Posts: 416
Joined: Tue Feb 24, 2009 6:57 pm
Location: Freakin' Paradise, man!


Return to Singlefinger Tech

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 2 guests

cron